[mach37]

Originally Posted by GalaxieJeff

"Bio-synthetic" LOL, thats an oxymoron! ... I leave my oil (a REAL synthetic, NOT a group III crude based synthetic like Syntec and M-1 and most other off the shelf, but thats been hashed out on other threads) in the car for TWO years or 35k.

Amsoil Signature? I want to try that. What is your filter changing schedule, and brand of filter? I've read about the potential for long periods like that, but never heard from someone who had actually done it.

[GalaxieJeff]

Originally Posted by mach37

Amsoil Signature? I want to try that. What is your filter changing schedule, and brand of filter? I've read about the potential for long periods like that, but never heard from someone who had actually done it.

Yep (they formerly called that Series 2000). I use Amsoils new (well several years old now) EaO filters. They are rated for 25,000. There old style were rated for 12,500 and thats about when I would change those then just top off the 3/4 to 1 quart I'd loose with that.
Cant remember the thread somewhere here on the forum, I mentioned how I used to send out samples every 10-12k or so before filter change time, and it ALWAYS came back the same, 'still fit for service' and wear metals almost non existant. I stopped with the samples.

[Jonzo77]

royal purple is my preference. 480,000 miles later, and the cylinders all looked as if the engine just came off the assembly line. still cross hatched, bearings not worn very much, no metal in drain pan, or the cheese cloth used to strain into drain pan. i kinda felt like an idiot for taking the engine out, but on the plus side, i now have a 93 t-bird HO in an 89 crown victoria...

[stovebolt]

The first real synthetic engine oils appeared for aircraft engines in World War II concurrently in Germany and in the United States. The motivation in Germany may be related primarily to resource issues, but also to functional performance requirements. The base oils for aircraft engines in Germany were based on a blend of an adipic acid ester with a poly(ethylene) oil[5], e.g., polymerized olefins/ethylene. Because synthetic oils made engine starting in winter easier and significantly decreased soot deposits in oil radiators, the United States Army Air Forces adopted polyglycols (polypropylene glycol monobutylethers) beginning in March 1944.[6][7]

"The Original Syn!" by SynLube in 1969, NEO Oil Company (formally EON) in 1970; they were dibasic acide esters, or diesters, and polyol ester-based synthetic lubricants. In 1971 All-Proof and Mobil 1, introduced to North America in 1974 a 5W-20 grade (category IV) PAO base oil.[11]
Synthetic oils are not recommended in automotive rotary engines

[GalaxieJeff]

Thanks for copying and pasting a Wiki article...but ummm, for what purpose?
Is it in answer to some question, does it make a point or are you asking a question? I do not see the point or the relivancy to this thread!

[GalaxieJeff]

Originally Posted by Jonzo77

royal purple is my preference. 480,000 miles later, and the cylinders all looked as if the engine just came off the assembly line. still cross hatched, bearings not worn very much, no metal in drain pan, or the cheese cloth used to strain into drain pan. i kinda felt like an idiot for taking the engine out, but on the plus side, i now have a 93 t-bird HO in an 89 crown victoria...

How often was the oil changed?
Sounds like an Amsoil ad where a cross country 18 wheeler went 409,000 miles without ever changing the oil (just filters and topping off what went out with the filters). At the time they stopped changing the oil the engine already had 200,000+ on it.
Cross hatching still there they reported and everything was examined, bearings, journals etc, all was withing factory spec for new.

Never took an engine that far myself, but at 175k or so on my old GTP I got a recall notice from GM about a faulty front valve cover gasket possibly leaking after "brisk" driving, then leaking on the hot exhaust manifold and possibly catching fire. I thought it was funny that after 175k and no gasket problem, GM still had to change that gasket so I took it to a Pontiac dealership. This was in their final months and there was ONE mechanic on duty and ONE salesperson (all their new cars were gone, they just had a few used cars left) and one secretary/cashier. I was thus able to hang around and shoot the breeze with the mechanic as he changed the gasket. Under the valve cover and the top of the head were as clean as new. Mechanic commented on that and asked if I either just recently had the engine out (he noticed I had some mods, smaller pulley and larger mandrel bent exhaust without a cat). I told him nope, he was the first person to remove the valve cover ever. Then he said I must use a synthetic and change the oil very often. He about pooped himself when I told him how far I go between changes (as I mentioned a few posts ago above). He said he heard about that before but thought it was all BS. After he finished I went home, got my record book (yes I keep detailed records on all my cars) went back and showed him. Also showed him the books on my other cars. I think I made an Amsoil long OCI convert out of him!


BTW I started (my introduction to synthetics) with Red Line then switched to Amsoil. All the information I was able to find and my dabbling into the world of tribology, they came out better. That was 30 years ago this fall, when I studied automotive engineering.
Note, though a loyal user I am not one of those die hard "Amsoil rules everything else sucks..." types. If something comes along better, enough to make a real difference, and competitively priced. I'll switch. No doubt about it.

[Poppy]

I've been following this thread on and off, primarily to make sure that it didn't need any moderation. It's been interesting reading.

I can't contribute anything to this thread, as I personally have never owned an engine with more than 200,000 miles on it. I am getting close though with my '99 4.6L in my Crown Vic. Other than commercial diesels, I suspect that the percentage of engines that are over 200,000 miles that get torn down is really small, less than one percent (that is just a guess). This is based on the fact that most drivers put 12-15,000 miles on their vehicles a year and by time an engine has 200K on it the vehicle is ready for the junk-yard. Primarily becuase it would cost more to fix the car than it is worth.

In those rare instances when engines have been torn down, and actually have a history of oil changes since it's initial build has to be extreemely rare. Therefore I believe that a back-yard mechanic could not have seen enough engines to draw a particularly viable conclusion. Are there other variables that need to be considered?

I suspect that engine condition after a certain period of time may be also based upon the quality of the original build. Had the factory been recently re-tooled? OR were the tools and dies at the end of their life expectancy? What was the quality of the steel used? Certainly there can be a variation there. Compare the steel that goes into a samuari sword, vs the cheap, poor grade of the Japanese steel of the '60's.

I remember that my Dad's '71 302 used to burn a quart of oil between each of 5,000 mile oil changes He bought the car new and kept it for 3 years. I had the oil in my '99 4.6 changed pretty much each 3,000 miles since it was new, and if I let it go 5,000 miles it was a quart low by then. Now that it is nearing 200,000 miles I need to add a quart at 2,500 miles, and it's an additional quart low by time I change it at 5,000, if I wait that long. On the other hand, I change the oil in my '98 3.8 at around 5,000 miles and it doesn't burn a drop. Both cars I bought new, and had been serviced at the same locations, so although I can't say which brand of oil was used for the first 100,000 miles I assume that it was the same.

Is the 3.8 that much better of an engine? Perhaps. Or perhaps that one was built from a better batch of steel, or the tools were new and sharp.

I really find it hard to believe that there are oils that are ten times better than the other top name brands. 400,000 miles and the cross thatching is still evident? That sounds like a story to me, but then again, perhaps there are some 200,000 engines that still have the cross thatching that have not been dissassembled because the car was junked because of transmission problems, valves, or a myriad of other issues.

[stovebolt]

thanks everyone for all your comments on this thread.
did not mean to step on any toes about people's different choices for out standing market of motor oils and gas additives
on the shelf at your local auto parts store. if everyone use the same products and never bought any thing different the stores would be pretty plain . so if brand x is better than brand O science is the only proof and the price tag to go along with the
gimmick.

thanks to all
signing off on this thread
case closed
stovebolt

[70XL]

talking about oil changes, I know of this fellow on another forum who has a Frantz Oil Cleaner in his 64 Galaxie. He says he has not changed the oil in 20, or 30 years. The Frantz thing is the one that uses rolls of toilet paper to clean, or filter the oil, and you just top up the oil when you change the toilet paper. His is an original installation from the sixties where the original spin on filter is completely removed and the toilet paper unit is the only filtration. I believe the current installation shows the Frantz unit in series with a standard filter. It sounds crazy, but it is interesting.
Frantz Oil Filters

[mark v]

Now that is just being cheap not to change any oil in 20 to 30 years cause you still got fuel dilution that does happen.

[mach37]

Originally Posted by mark v

Now that is just being cheap not to change any oil in 20 to 30 years cause you still got fuel dilution that does happen.

That is misleading, to imply you don't change oil at all. You are still having to buy oil and add it with every filter change. You are just not throwing out as much reusable oil as with the old method. If you use synthetic oil for extended periods as previously mentioned, you are doing the same thing; still adding oil and probably essentially buying enough oil for a full change every year or two, depending on your annual road mileage. And Frantz says the TP works just fine with synthetic oil.

[GalaxieJeff]

Originally Posted by 70XL

talking about oil changes, I know of this fellow on another forum who has a Frantz Oil Cleaner in his 64 Galaxie. He says he has not changed the oil in 20, or 30 years. The Frantz thing is the one that uses rolls of toilet paper to clean, or filter the oil, and you just top up the oil when you change the toilet paper. His is an original installation from the sixties where the original spin on filter is completely removed and the toilet paper unit is the only filtration. I believe the current installation shows the Frantz unit in series with a standard filter. It sounds crazy, but it is interesting. Frantz Oil Filters

I remember seeing those toilet paper filters in JC Whitney catalogs in the '70s....never thought it was a good idea, even as a kid it seemed a gimmick.
I have heard of the concept, Amsoil makes what they call a "by-pass" filtration system. Unlike the tp filter this is an additional filter that filters down super low, 1 micron or less. Keeps the oil almost surgically clean (not that any one would use motor oil in surgery ). IIRC, it's been a long time, regular filters average 20 microns to 30 or more for cheaper ones.
Obviously due to the much smaller passages it's a lot more restrictive, the set up has the oil going through the regular filter at the regular rate, thus no oil pressure problems, and through the by-pass at a rate they say of the entire 5 qts once every 5 minutes or so of freeway driving. The pressure drop and relation to filtration particulate size is the main reason I can not see the tp filter working, also too many variables in types of tp and roll (sheet count) size. I highly doubt a cheap no name tp is going to filter the same as a more expensive super soft name brand, they have to be vastly off in filtering properties.
Anyhow, with Amsoils system, same concept, when you change filters you top off what left with the filters. And they advise to send out samples just before each filter change. That 18 wheeler I mentioned had this by-pass filtration system, samples always came back that the oil was still well within spec. Obviously keeping it super clean does the trick, then replacing the two qts lost with both filters replenishes the additive package. Thats basically how recycled oil works, they filter the heck outa it then put back the additives.
I do not recall the filter change intervals with the by-pass system, though do recall the regular filter life was extended due to the extra filter.
Personally I never saw the need for the extra expense of the system as my samples always came back so good without it and adding it even when the cost is spread out over the long run always came out more (in my calculations for my use).

[Poppy]

Originally Posted by 70XL

talking about oil changes, I know of this fellow on another forum who has a Frantz Oil Cleaner in his 64 Galaxie. He says he has not changed the oil in 20, or 30 years.

What's the other half of the story? Is the car a trailer queen?

OR... does it burn so much that he is adding a quart every 1,000 miles?

[70XL]

Originally Posted by Poppy

What's the other half of the story? Is the car a trailer queen? OR... does it burn so much that he is adding a quart every 1,000 miles?

No trailer queen. The car is a 64 Galaxie w/ 390 PI. I think the clock is on the third go around and the Frantz filter has been on it since the late 60's. You can read more about it on Ford Muscle Forums.

[Flyingjackal456]

All I can say is my cars readily hit 200-300k before they are junked.... and more often than not, the car is junked because I get a newer car, and don't want to drive the older car, so I sell it off cheap, or junk it.

I use regular oil for break-in, and Mobil 1 synthetic 5w-30 on all of my cars after break-in. After the car gets older, if the oil blackens before the change interval (7000 miles for me when using M1), i switch back to regular oil and change it at 3000. I have never had an engine not hit 200,000 miles, unless the car was traded in.

My 1998 Windstar didn't burn a drop at 235,000 and everything was perfect. Then the head gasket blew suddenly, and the engine was swapped with a reman. Now that failure has nothing to do with what oil I used, but rather the aluminum head on iron block design. If I simply put a new gasket on the engine, it would probably still be running fine today.

[F250gasburner]

Ul never get rid of all the carbon unless of coarse u delete egr i did it when i built my heads and vated my intakes and bypassed all smog bs its so smooth i love it its
like a new one