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1962 Falcon Sport Futura
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Previously posted as:
1962 Falcon Futura 170ci - Non-ethanol gas caused carb adjustment problem.

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Earlier this week my son filled the 62 with non-ethanol gas. It drove fine for a few hours and many miles. When he stopped for lunch it ran for only a few seconds then stopped. It would crank but not start, but after several - probly about 10 - minutes, it would start and run for a few seconds then stop again. This was repeated many times. Using starter spray allowed it to run for a few seconds but once again would die. The cycle would repeat ad nauseum.

When I got there we repeated the above, confirmed spark and fuel was getting to the carb. I decided to try adjusting the fuel mixture screw 1/2 turn in and tried starting again. This time she started and ran but would not idle. I adjusted the idle speed screw up a turn and that problem was fixed, but the idle is higher than it should be. The carb is a 1bbl Holley or Autolite.

Anyone else experienced anything like this after using non-ethanol gas?

While troubleshooting I loosened the fuel line into the carb to confirm it was getting gas and narrowed the problem down to the carburetor. When I tightened it back up a small leak continued and no amount of tightening the line would stop it. It wasn't severe and you could see it creeping out of the pipe fitting before enough accumulated to drip onto the manifold below. We were able to drive it home without any further problems. We'll need to pickup a replacement pipe and fitting next weekend. Fine tuning of the fuel mixture and idle will be done after the fuel line is replaced.

Bob
 

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You might check out the float level on the carb is correct. And the float does in fact float
There are no vacuum leaks as well

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Non-Ethanol fuel itself, should not cause any adverse tuning effects. Contaminated fuel will show up fast. Chances are the problem is coincidental with the fil up or the fuel could possibly be at fault.

Old gas tanks and microscopic sediment is often a cause of intermittent carb problerms. Simple clear inline fuel filters BEFORE and AFTER fuel pump can help to diagnose or fix.



have fun
 

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1962 Falcon Sport Futura
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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the replies.

I doubt it's the floats or bad gas because a simple adjustment on the air-fuel mixture screw fixed the problem. No other problems have been seen. It's just weird that the car was running fine - my son said it was running great - on the non-ethanol and then all of a sudden wouldn't stay running.

I think the carb is fairly new. We bought the car in the early 2000's in the Phoenix, Az area. It was our son's daily driver until about 2008 when he moved here to Georgia. From mid-2008 until late 2017 it sat under a makeshift carport I built on the side of our house. In later 2017 we were making plans for moving here to Ga and took it to a local shop to get it running and safe to drive. Many things were done/replaced, IIRC the bill was a bit over $2000 and included brakes, wheel bearing service, cleaning the fuel tank, new fuel lines, cooling flush, air and fuel filters and I'm sure a new carb and other things not listed. Plus plenty for labor. There was also a new fuel pump, but without the vacuum port for the wipers. I later bought and installed a vacuum equipped fuel pump - BEFORE I noticed the vacuum port on the intake manifold <doh!>

A vacuum leak was the 1st thing I thought of but I didn't find any leaks. We were working on the vacuum windshield wiper motor earlier in the week and have it out of the car. It was totally locked up by hardened grease. We took it apart and cleaned it out but it was still very stiff and wouldn't work using engine vacuum. I gave up on it and ordered a bolt-in electric replacement. All vacuum ports were plugged and secured.

Thanks again.
Bob
 

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Ruling out things without diagnosis may lead to a false conclusion.

Have a vacuum gauge? post the reading on a hot engine idle

The adjustment you made to the carb to get it to run was to lean out or cut back the fuel. A sinking float or incorrect float (too high) setting can be compensated with a leaner mixture setting to some degree.

Debris in the fuel can lodge in the fuel inlet causing the inlet need to not seat fully.

If it has been mostly unused since 2017, condensation or water in the fuel can be an issue. Without testing the fuel usually it is easier to replace the fuel filter. And filter replacement on an annual basis was kind of a normal maintenance back in the day

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1962 Falcon Sport Futura
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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I have a vacuum gauge, we measured it while we were working on the wiper motor earlier in the week. At the wiper port on the fuel pump it was going back and forth rather wildly with ~10lbs being in the center of the swings.

I moved the gauge to the port on the intake under the carb and it was steady, about in the 12-15 range. Don't quote me on that, I'd have to connect it back up to find out for sure, that's just what I think I remember. Right now it's over at our son's house and we need to fix the fuel line problem before it gets started up again.

We got a little crossed-communications on the use of the car. It sat idle and unused from 2008 to late 2017. At the end of 2017 I got it running again in preparation for the trip to Ga. It was transported from Phoenix to Ga by professional vehicle transporters. I had a transport with a different vehicle on it towed by my pickup truck when we drove. Since late 2017 it's been getting regular use, we never had a stale gas problem with it or any other vehicle.

Prior to the non-running problem after it was filled with the non-ethanol gas, there wasn't any problems with the engine. It's possible I had it set on the lean boundary and the non-ethanol gas changed things just enough that it developed the non-running problem I described.

I was just curious if anyone else had a similar problem using non-ethanol gas.

Best,
Bob
 

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ethanol would require a fatter mix . filling with non eth. would cause a rich condition if nothing was changed
 

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Don't rule out a bad underground tank of non-ethanol fuel; it doesn't get used nearly as much as ethanol fuels. It happened to my buddy when he filled his Harley last year; the engine died not long after filling up. And other cars he noticed while fueling had the same issues on the same day, returning to that station fuming. He had to trailer it to a Harley shop for a fuel system flush.
 

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I moved the gauge to the port on the intake under the carb and it was steady, about in the 12-15 range. Don't quote me on that, I'd have to connect it back up to find out for sure, that's just what I think I remember. Right now it's over at our son's house and we need to fix the fuel line problem before it gets started up again.
When you get a chance 17 or higher is what is wanted
Your base ignition timing may be off or there may be a vacuum leak or the valve timing may be off
Engine Vacuum Test Results | Vacuum Test Diagnosis (freeasestudyguides.com)

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My suggestion would be to remove the carb, and then clean it out. This is probably debris related. I'd clean or replace the fuel filter too.
 

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1962 Falcon Sport Futura
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Discussion Starter #11
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I was thinking about doing that too, but I have had no luck in the past working on carbs. Anytime I open one up for a rebuild or cleaning of any kind it's game over and a trip to the parts store to buy a new one is required. The most common problem I remember having is uneven idle - goes high, then low, then high, then low, etc. No idea what I've been doing wrong but I've learned to save my money and leave them alone. If something severe is happening, I'll weigh the cost of replacement vs taking it to a shop. But other than simple adjustments and connections I leave them alone.
 

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Earlier this week my son filled the 62 with non-ethanol gas. It drove fine for a few hours and many miles. When he stopped for lunch it ran for only a few seconds then stopped. It would crank but not start, but after several - probly about 10 - minutes, it would start and run for a few seconds then stop again. This was repeated many times. Using starter spray allowed it to run for a few seconds but once again would die. The cycle would repeat ad nauseum.

When I got there we repeated the above, confirmed spark and fuel was getting to the carb. I decided to try adjusting the fuel mixture screw 1/2 turn in and tried starting again. This time she started and ran but would not idle. I adjusted the idle speed screw up a turn and that problem was fixed, but the idle is higher than it should be. The carb is a 1bbl Holley or Autolite.

Anyone else experienced anything like this after using non-ethanol gas?

While troubleshooting I loosened the fuel line into the carb to confirm it was getting gas and narrowed the problem down to the carburetor. When I tightened it back up a small leak continued and no amount of tightening the line would stop it. It wasn't severe and you could see it creeping out of the pipe fitting before enough accumulated to drip onto the manifold below. We were able to drive it home without any further problems. We'll need to pickup a replacement pipe and fitting next weekend. Fine tuning of the fuel mixture and idle will be done after the fuel line is replaced.

Bob
Sounds to me like you may have just gotten bad gas.... rephrasing, he may have put old or watered down gas in the car. If it ran fine before lunch it doesn't seem likely to have a sudden carb failure while your eating. But watered gas may run in a warm engine but not restart when cooled down.
 

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The most common problem I remember having is uneven idle - goes high, then low, then high, then low, etc. No idea what I've been doing wrong but I've learned to save my money and leave them alone. If something severe is happening, I'll weigh the cost of replacement vs taking it to a shop. But other than simple adjustments and connections I leave them alone.
That is called a rolling idle condition. More common in electronic fuel injection. Most of the time caused by a vacuum leak. Or in a carb the idle speed is set incorrectly.
In a carb what happens as there is more air flow, as idle speed increases the there are slots or ports that allow more fuel to be sent because of air speed through the carb.
The lean mixture from a leak will cause the idle speed to increase and more fuel to be sent to a point then will drop down.

Critical adjustments are float level and idle mixture screw setting .... in that order
Before that is adjusted all of the ignition system has to be set up.
And any vacuum leaks fixed.
Then do carb adjustments.

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1962 Falcon Sport Futura
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Discussion Starter #14
First, Thanks to all who posted responses to the problem, especially those that suggested a vacuum leak.

We replaced the metal fuel line yesterday, got it all bent and routed and no fuel leaks after we were done.

Now, I need to say that I'm pretty sure the original post I made was grossly incorrect or inaccurate, and that indeed the problem we are having is a vacuum leak. Turning the mixture screw and the car starting afterward was just a lucky coincidence.

After taking care of the fuel pipe and letting it warm up, I tried adjusting the carb for best air-fuel mixture. No matter how much I adjusted the mix screw, the idle never changed. I took it from very loose all the way down to where the spring started giving resistance, the idle never changed. I never totally removed nor totally bottomed the mixture screw. We went for a quick ride and it ran great with no problems but the idle is turned up to about 1k rpms to keep it from stalling out. No gauge, just earball guesstimate. I'm aware this vacuum problem needs to be solved as it can cause severe engine problems if left as is.

I didn't take my vacuum gauge yesterday so I have not yet measured engine vacuum.

This problem seemed to start after we removed the vacuum wiper motor and plugged the wiper port at the fuel pump using the time trusted method of a piece of fuel line with a suitable sized bolt in it and secured by small hose clamps.

Could a vacuum leak at the fuel pump wiper port cause this problem? It doesn't seem possible to me as no air should be injected at that point, but I've been wrong before and want to check with others who likely have more experience with this.

Other than the fuel pump, the only other vacuum ports are at the carburetor base, one is a small 1/4"-ish metal pipe that is capped off, the other is a larger 5/8"-ish hose that feeds from the (what used to be called) PCV valve on top of the valve cover. I removed and recapped the 1/4" port last week when I measured engine vacuum. The PCV hose was never disconnected or otherwise moved.

Other than what I posted above, I haven't yet had a chance to look more in-depth at this, we ran out of time yesterday and the car is at our son's house so I cannot just run out to check something.

I'm planning to use a BBQ lighter stick (not lit) to feed butane at the various ports to try to isolate the leak.

Thanks,
Bob
 

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1962 Falcon Sport Futura
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Discussion Starter #15
This is the fuel pump I have. Bought and installed it in 2019.


The vacuum wipers have not worked since 2008-ish when the car was put in storage. When we got it running again in 2017 they did not have a fuel pump with the vacuum wiper port.

I don't know why they didn't notice the vacuum port on the carb base. But then again, I didn't either until a couple weeks ago. :rolleyes:
 

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vacuum to the wipers is provided by the engine. the vacuum pump on the fuel pump is there to provide vacuum when the engine is producing little as in hills or hard acceleration. the line comming from the carb to the pump needs to be plugged.not the on to the wipers unless you have leaf rollers in your area.
 

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First, I must congratulate you on your honesty. Many people would never post back to say their original assumptions were wrong and that is no help to the people here who might be dealing with the same problem. So, kudos to you!
I'll be following along as you post more information.
Regardless of your past experience, you should follow Action's advice, in the order he listed. There are pretty simple carbs, but the float level is critical to everything functioning correctly. Maybe you just picked up some crap in the fuel. To rule out any problems associated with the fuel, you could rig a temporary gas supply that doesn't use the car's tank or the gas that is in it.
You might be able to hear a vacuum leak by using a length of hose as a stethoscope.
Good luck. and please keep us informed.
 

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using the time trusted method of a piece of fuel line with a suitable sized bolt in it and secured by small hose clamps.
The vacuum leak could be from around the threads in the bolt you used to close off the vacuum hose. I know I have seen it with fuel systems. There's no reason to think a vacuum line wouldn't do the same thing. Try something with a smooth shoulder or temporarily bend the hose back on itself and tape it off. That should tell you rather quickly if the vacuum leak is around the bolt threads.
 

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1962 Falcon Sport Futura
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Yes, that sounds like the best place to start. I picked up a couple of the long butane BBQ lighters to use for tracking down the leak yesterday.

A few weeks before this problem began we were working on the vacuum wiper motor. I remember we capped off the fuel pump vac line and moved the wiper motor to the line at the carb base. It didn't work there either so we pulled the wiper motor and found it all gummed up, the grease had hardened and the internals wouldn't move at all. I cleaned it up but it was still kind of stiff. I've never worked on them so I have no idea how easy it should move, but 17lbs of vacuum doesn't really have that much oompf so I think the motor should move freely. We reconnected the motor to the vac line but still had no action. At that point we made the executive decision to go electric.

With his work schedule, the colder weather and the holidays all coming together, it looks like the long Christmas and/or New Years weekends will be our next opportunity to work on it. Hopefully it won't be raining.

We also have a new turn signal switch to install and replace the rear spring shackles, it has long ones on it now to give it a little rake, he wants to put the originals back on. Oh, some of that fuzzy trim stuff around the door openings and new door rubber seals to put on.

We all like pics, here's a few more.

Driving home from San Diego.

P1010075.jpg


In 2008, our son moved to Atlanta. We built this little carport on the side of the house to store it.

Mike Falcon Carport - May 2008 003.jpg


Here's what she looked like in Dec 2017:

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Message_1512329608871.jpg


After we pulled her out and cleaned up

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The interior stayed really clean, only had to do a light wipe down and clean the windows.

20171203_103648_HDR_1512322647199.jpg


20171207_133501.jpg
 
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