[ilaudio]

I am troubleshooting some power window console switches that worked intermittently and now don't work at all. I removed 2 of the switches, cleaned and returned back to console and nothing. They looked really good inside except for a little green build up. I lightly sanded with fine sanding paper the contacts. To solve the issue, I need to understand better how they function. Here is the wiring diagram I found.

From what I can tell, the power is supplied to switches via the bus bar down the underside and across.

( the bottom cross bus is removed in the photo)

So when the switch is rocked up or down, it pushes against the silver metal tabs. This is where I need help to understand where my issues are with these switches. I am not sure if pushing the switch in 1 direction supplies power to the motor by connecting a colored wire to the ground or what. When you look at the below photo, if I am testing for continuity, where exactly am I testing at?

This was before light sanding:

After sanding:

Would be great if someone could help me troubleshoot this. I do know one of the spare switches engages the passenger window down and not up so assuming wiring from console to motor is good.

When I did have a switch out I tried to do continuity test from underside with a red or yellow lead to the contacts on top side. And 1 of the colors seemed to also make continuity on the center brass piece and not just it's side of the silver tab.

I could test the switches in car for voltage too I suppose...again...just a little lost as to the method to do process of elimination.

Help please...and thanks in advance.

 

[Action]

Start at the power in -
The wiring diagram you posted shows

The issue you have may be no grounding circuit.

Test for
Power coming in at 938 circuit which is black-white. I do not see that wire in your pictures.
If the wire color is different, make sure you have power coming into the lock out switch
AND
Power out with lock out switch connected to the 170 circuit or red-blue wire. This circuit sends power to the rear windows. You can then test the rear window circuit, switches and motor for power available. These are the only windows with remote switches.

Ground for all windows motors is back into the master switch and then out to a ground circuit.
To power a window motor, power comes into the master switch and back out to a remote switch. Then through the remote switch to motor, then back into the remote switch, back into the master switch and out to a ground. Both the power and the ground are close by to the master switch.

Check that first and then you can get into the master switch.

Action

 

[Dominick 1]

I can't help
But maybe some other member can

 

[ilaudio]

Start at the power in -
The wiring diagram you posted shows

The issue you have may be no grounding circuit.

Test for
Power coming in at 938 circuit which is black-white. I do not see that wire in your pictures.
If the wire color is different, make sure you have power coming into the lock out switch
AND
Power out with lock out switch connected to the 170 circuit or red-blue wire. This circuit sends power to the rear windows. You can then test the rear window circuit, switches and motor for power available. These are the only windows with remote switches.

Ground for all windows motors is back into the master switch and then out to a ground circuit.
To power a window motor, power comes into the master switch and back out to a remote switch. Then through the remote switch to motor, then back into the remote switch, back into the master switch and out to a ground. Both the power and the ground are close by to the master switch.

Check that first and then you can get into the master switch.

Action

In case I didn't say before , the driver front window works all the time. The rear window switches are not currently connected. When they redid the car, the just connected rear qtr windows with the switches on the side panel. I have tried to rotate them in by connecting them to the front passenger wiring and 1 seems to want to let it go down but not up.

 

[ilaudio]

Start at the power in -
The wiring diagram you posted shows

The issue you have may be no grounding circuit.

Test for
Power coming in at 938 circuit which is black-white. I do not see that wire in your pictures.
If the wire color is different, make sure you have power coming into the lock out switch
AND
Power out with lock out switch connected to the 170 circuit or red-blue wire. This circuit sends power to the rear windows. You can then test the rear window circuit, switches and motor for power available. These are the only windows with remote switches.

Ground for all windows motors is back into the master switch and then out to a ground circuit.
To power a window motor, power comes into the master switch and back out to a remote switch. Then through the remote switch to motor, then back into the remote switch, back into the master switch and out to a ground. Both the power and the ground are close by to the master switch.

Check that first and then you can get into the master switch.

Action

Ok..so I tested for Volts at lockout switch. 12.94 Volts coming in and out. The Front Pass switch that isn't working...it had 12.94 Volts on the red (down) wire when I put in down position and 0 Volts in the up position. I also tested the yellow (up) wire on bottom of switch. It too had 0 Volts up and 12.94 volts down. The window did move like 1/2" up but that's it while testing.

So any ideas what that could be or what to try next?

 

[Action]

The pictures you posted of the inside of the switches show poor contacts and the corrosion. Likely they have been in a humid location. And the battery has been low when operating the windows. A low battery will cause arcing and further degrade the contact.

The voltage of 12.94 is very good. Actually better than ideal if the engine was off. If the engine was on with the alternator working that would be a poor voltage reading. For a vehicle that is 50 years or older, I would likely never run the windows with the engine off. Or at least have a battery charger on the battery pumping in 14 volts. Before power can get to the master switch it has to pass through a connection on the starter relay, window relay and junction block before power ever gets to the lock out switch! That is a lot of 50 year old connections that may need some cleaning.

The switches in the master switch switch both power and the ground. There are 4 wires or circuits to the any switch in the master switch plate. One of power coming in from the main bus. 3 other wires that go out. 2 to the motor and 1 to ground. The purpose of the switch in the master switch plate is to alter current to the two wires to the motor.
In the up position, current goes to the motor on one leg and out the other leg to ground. When the switch is moved in the other direction, the current flows the opposite way

The ground is connected to the remote switches at the master switch.

Action

 

[ilaudio]

The pictures you posted of the inside of the switches show poor contacts and the corrosion. Likely they have been in a humid location. And the battery has been low when operating the windows. A low battery will cause arcing and further degrade the contact.

The voltage of 12.94 is very good. Actually better than ideal if the engine was off. If the engine was on with the alternator working that would be a poor voltage reading. For a vehicle that is 50 years or older, I would likely never run the windows with the engine off. Or at least have a battery charger on the battery pumping in 14 volts. Before power can get to the master switch it has to pass through a connection on the starter relay, window relay and junction block before power ever gets to the lock out switch! That is a lot of 50 year old connections that may need some cleaning.

The switches in the master switch switch both power and the ground. There are 4 wires or circuits to the any switch in the master switch plate. One of power coming in from the main bus. 3 other wires that go out. 2 to the motor and 1 to ground. The purpose of the switch in the master switch plate is to alter current to the two wires to the motor.
In the up position, current goes to the motor on one leg and out the other leg to ground. When the switch is moved in the other direction, the current flows the opposite way

The ground is connected to the remote switches at the master switch.

Action

That current was with car off.
I did some light sanding on the inside of the switches before taking that photo...have any ideas why the switch in question would show 12Volts on both red & yellow wires when pressed down and nothing when up? I get poor contacts causing low or no voltage on one of the wires...but when press down--both wires show 12 volts....that has me confused.

 

[Action]

I can not comment to your wire color references. And I don't understand when you say pressed down.

There are 6 red or red and some other color circuits
And there are 6 yellow or yellow with some other color circuits.

Use the wiring diagram for circuit reference.
Switches connect. That is all they do. Pressing down on a switch or a wire or ??? is difficult for me to understand what you mean. A switch connects two circuits in the up and two in the down

RF window motor has a 314 (red-black) down circuit and a 313 (yellow-black) up circuit.
When the switch is moved to up, the 313 should have power
The 314 has nothing
And the 57 or black wire is the ground
Switching the RF to up and there is no power to the 313 circuit the power is not coming out of the switch. Also the black 57 circuit has to be properly connected to ground by the switch. If both of those are not functioning eitehr the switch needs to be cleaned out or replaced

The opposite happens for down.
When the switch is moved to down, the 314 should have power
The 313 has nothing
And the 57 or black wire is the ground

Repeat for all other switches in the master plate.

Action

 

[ilaudio]

Thanks for your assistance. Here's what I have found: 1 of the switches does have the correct Volts when pressed up or down. (12v on yellow when switch is pushed up, 12v on red when switch is down). It will move the window down not up. So I put the tester lead between the wiring coupler of the switch and the wiring that connects to the wiring on the front pass door. The Yellow wire (up) does have 12v when I push it up. So I am wondering if there is an issue on the yellow wiring on the motor end? Here's what is odd. Prior to messing with the switches it was down that was mainly the issue with the switch/window. Also, when testing, I accidentally bridged the lead to the yellow and bus bar and it moved the window a 1/2" up...so that makes me doubt the yellow wiring bad. Any ideas?

 

[Action]

The circuit comes back to the switch to find ground. The switch has to supply both power and ground.
That may happen in one direction but not the other. Meaning the switch works to supply power in both directions. Just not the ground side in both directions.

Has to have a ground for the motor to work.

Action

 

[ilaudio]

The circuit comes back to the switch to find ground. The switch has to supply both power and ground.
That may happen in one direction but not the other. Meaning the switch works to supply power in both directions. Just not the ground side in both directions.

Has to have a ground for the motor to work.

Action

Ok...so looking at the inside of the switch. Pressing in one direction, contact at the bottom of the switch knob makes contact with the power contact at the very bottom of the inside of the switch while pushing the other wires's lever against the grounded middle section. So by grounding the yellow wire and making contact with the red wire the window should go down and vice versa. Does that make sense? Here are some photos that hopefully display how I am thinking it works when the switch is pushed up:

If this is correct, I need to know how to test the switch for the ground that you mentioned is not making contact. I know that the ground for the circuit is attached under the shifter and when I clip the tester black lead to it and the red to a 12v source seems to be fine...so I guess I am assuming the ground to the circuit is ok...and like you said it's the ground in the switch not connecting. Could it be that the silver metal bars with the 90 degree tab that sticks up is not touching the ground bar thus not grounding the switch activating it? I really appreciate your assistance and am looking forward to solving this....all of the wires from the switches connect to the wiring that goes to the doors and is in a sleeve so cannot see more than that from the console.

 

[Action]

I am not clear how the switch mechanically operates.
Just reading the diagram from the #1 post is how I concluded the operation.
Power comes in off of that screw from the bus bar

When the switch is pushed for up operation, 12v + from the screw/bus bar needs to go to the up wire.
And the down wire needs to be connected to the ground/black wire coming into the switch.

The opposite is true for down window operation
The down wire needs to be connected to the 12v+ of the bus
The up wire needs to be connected to ground

Action

 

[ilaudio]

Yes. I think we are on the same page on that then. Thank you.

So would there be a way to measure with a meter the ground when the switch is pushed up? Trying to figure out what the next step would be. I could take the switch out and physically open it up again to see if the silver tab hits the ground when pushed up...just not sure if it's as simple as that.

 

[ilaudio]

Or would there be a way to jumper the switch to see if it goes up from under the switch? I don't want to mess anything up...just get to the bottom of what is the issue.

 

[Action]

Testing using a voltmeter

All switches installed in master switch plate
Disconnect the window motor at a 2 wire plug. (Front window motors only)
Insert voltmeter to the disconnected plug connector that has wires that go back to the switch

To test - Operate the switch in either direction
In one direction the voltmeter will read battery voltage
In the other direction the voltmeter will read NEGATIVE battery voltage. If the meter is set up to do that. If not switch the leads of the voltmeter in the plug

Doing this you are testing the following items
The 12 volt power source
The 12 volt ground
The lock out switch
The switch in the master switch plate
And the wiring & connectors that connects everything.

What is not tested is the motor and the wiring from the motor to that plug connector

Action

 

[Action]

If you do get the voltages above, either all is good or the motors and/or wiring are an issue

If you do not get the voltages above issues are with ....
The 12 volt power source
The 12 volt ground
The lock out switch
The switch in the master switch plate
And the wiring & connectors that connects everything.

Likely is is the switches. Then you need to determine if both hot and ground are happening. You can do this easily by leaving the voltmeter connected as is in post #15.

Operate the switch in one direction and move the - side wire of the voltmeter to a known good ground. If you have a 12 volt reading now it is because the switch is not supplying a ground or the ground circuit from the switch is an issue.

Or if you have no reading at all it is because the window switch needs to be moved the other direction. OR there is no 12v+ power at all

Action

 

[ilaudio]

Since you said 2 wire connector....I circled what I am guessing you mean in green. The purple circles represent what I can see from the console. If it's the green one, I am guessing it's in the door or kick panel (which I was hoping to avoid tearing into). If a new switch was readily available or the one I found wasn't $250, I would just try that, but since that's not the case I am doing my best to figure this out and appreciate the guidance.

 

[Action]

Yes the green circle OR the other one upstream from that one.

The one you circled is at the motor. I know that for sure, as the motor has a 4 to 6 inch pigtail.
I do not know where the other one is. That other one may be in or near the console.

Action

 

[ilaudio]

Testing using a voltmeter

All switches installed in master switch plate
Disconnect the window motor at a 2 wire plug. (Front window motors only)
Insert voltmeter to the disconnected plug connector that has wires that go back to the switch

To test - Operate the switch in either direction
In one direction the voltmeter will read battery voltage
In the other direction the voltmeter will read NEGATIVE battery voltage. If the meter is set up to do that. If not switch the leads of the voltmeter in the plug

Doing this you are testing the following items
The 12 volt power source
The 12 volt ground
The lock out switch
The switch in the master switch plate
And the wiring & connectors that connects everything.

What is not tested is the motor and the wiring from the motor to that plug connector

Action

OK...found the 2 wire connection behind the kickplate. Here's what happened. -12V down, nothing up.

 

[ilaudio]

If you do get the voltages above, either all is good or the motors and/or wiring are an issue

If you do not get the voltages above issues are with ....
The 12 volt power source
The 12 volt ground
The lock out switch
The switch in the master switch plate
And the wiring & connectors that connects everything.

Likely is is the switches. Then you need to determine if both hot and ground are happening. You can do this easily by leaving the voltmeter connected as is in post #15.

Operate the switch in one direction and move the - side wire of the voltmeter to a known good ground. If you have a 12 volt reading now it is because the switch is not supplying a ground or the ground circuit from the switch is an issue.

Or if you have no reading at all it is because the window switch needs to be moved the other direction. OR there is no 12v+ power at all

Action

When moving the negative lead to a ground behind the kickplate, the switch in down position 0, up position 12 V. So this means the ground circuit?