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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am beginning to consider a Panther and have a few questions-- ( "sticky" Buyer's Guide would be great for other newbies). I am a longtime Ford guy, but Panther is a new car in my experience.
Rust it doesn't seem to be a major issue, but where does it begin?
EEC versus OBD2 Is there a reason to choose one over the other? Are both systems reliable?
At what mileage do major systems begin to breakdown? Engine? Trans? A/C ? other
What is essential to know about a Panther before purchasing one?

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Three generations of a vehicle platform that spanned model years 1979 to 2011. (Unless you count the 2012s which were fleet only)
A very simple body on frame design used for Ford, Lincoln and Mercury sales divisions.
Was not originally designed for a 30+ year run. And the consumer kept buying those cars in that platform. So, Ford continued to build them.
The commercial world used this platform a lot because it was very sturdy, reliable and easy to maintain. Taxi, police, limousine, fleets both government and private.

First generation was the last American car with front vent windows. Last platform to use Windsor V8. And last platform to have a 5 door station wagon.
After 1987 the two-door body style was dropped because of lagging sales
Last American car to use a carburetor.
For model years 1980 to 1982 full sized LTD and Marquis were equipped with the base engine of 255 CID. This Windsor block had a smaller bore than 302. Made as a stop gap engine to conform to CAFE. It was possible to get over 20 mpg. However, the engine was overwhelmed with any passengers more than the driver!

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Electronic Engine Controls -
The first several generations of EEC were used from 1974 to the early 1980s.
When EEC IV was rolled out in 1981 with Ford Escort. Did not make into the Panther platform.

The early versions of all of the EEC systems were OK. EEC IV had issues with the connector until that was changed out to a 40 pin connector in the early to mid-1980s.
I heard that EECIV in the mid-80s had more computing power that most space missions from the 1970s and earlier. Or an F14. Not sure if that was true or not.
By the late 1980s and to 1995 EECIV did a good job of controlling engine functions.
OBDII was a Federal mandate that all vehicle manufactures selling cars and light trucks in model year 1996 and later conform to a standard that made testing the same for all manufacturers. Vehicle manufacturers of all makes came together in the years prior to that to create the frame work of OBDII

While OBD II is more complex that previous EEC. That was true of all EEC system designs. They are not static. Later versions control more engine functions and do it faster than previous years. The engine control functions now customize each individual injector spray amount as the engine is turning thousands of RPMs.

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yes--I find it amazing that the EEC or OBD on sequential injector engines does a MASSIVE amount of computing thousands of time every second. Certainly more computing power than any of the Apollo missions---your cell phone surpasses that they had--and they had to think in hexadecimal; no higher lever languages; not even BASIC. I had a "computer on a page" a single circuit board that had 256 bytes of memory. It was just a learning tool. but so limited and it was probably more than the Apollo guys had. 256 BYTES!!! can you even imagine.

How reliable is the air bag system. i know you have one and prefer it, but based on some reading I have done, you can't expect Dealers to actually know much about the system. Replacing parts is an expensive way to go.
 

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Yes--I find it amazing that the EEC or OBD on sequential injector engines does a MASSIVE amount of computing thousands of time every second. Certainly more computing power than any of the Apollo missions---your cell phone surpasses that they had--and they had to think in hexadecimal; no higher lever languages; not even BASIC. I had a "computer on a page" a single circuit board that had 256 bytes of memory. It was just a learning tool. but so limited and it was probably more than the Apollo guys had. 256 BYTES!!! can you even imagine.

How reliable is the air bag system. i know you have one and prefer it, but based on some reading I have done, you can't expect Dealers to actually know much about the system. Replacing parts is an expensive way to go.
Hello ms fowler,

Action did well in presenting the Panthers through the decades. I have owned 4 of these cars (93,94,97 and 2004) and still have the '94. In owning these things for well over 10 years and a few hundred thousand miles I can present my findings on them. In my experience, the 92-95's are the best built and riding cars. The 96 through 2000 are some of the poorest quality cars and Ford being in trouble with Jaguar, Range Rover and other overseas deals had to cut costs on their American products and it shows. The '97 we had was just cheap interior, rattles, and it drove like a cheap car. I traded a friend of a family member my '97 for '95 whilst I put new brakes on my car and a middle aged women who knows nothing about cars basically said the '97 was a piece of junk compared to her '95 and my '97 looked better and had less miles so take that with a grain of salt.

Speaking of salt and rust. The '96 to 2000's seemed to have poor rust preventions. The bottom of the doors were rusting out from the inside out on the '97 the rockers are another place. The '97 also had electrical (ECU) problems and the engine would occasionally run on 4-5 cylinders and then be ok again with no hard or soft codes tripped but the check engine lamp would flash. I took that '97 to CarMax and was glad to be rid of it. I bought a '93 Grand Marquis LS after that and it was miles apart in quality. That car too went many salty winters and after several of them only ended up with a hole in the underside of the rocker. The visual exterior of the car looked as good as the day it was made still. The doors didn't rust at all. That car had traction control and was a half track in the snow. I remember going to work and people with crappy little front wheel drive cars and minivans would be stuck and the '93 Merc just pulled right out in 6+ inches of snow and soldiered on home with no worries.

The 2004 was a decent car but not as nice as the '93 or '94. The quality improved over the late 90's some but it still felt cheap especially the interior and it was delaminating in some parts. We put nearly 200K on that car alone. The problems we had with the 2004 Merc were the cheap plastic intake manifold cracking and I replaced it twice. It's just garbage and you cannot retrofit an early 90's all aluminum intake on that because Ford changed the fuel injection arrangement. Plus by then half the electrical connections for coils and injectors just shattered from age. More cheap garbage Ford use. If you have to take the car in for repair something like an intake manifold will cost around a grand, if not more now to fix. The other problems we had with the 2004 was the blend door servo (electric) became stuck on heat during the summer. I called around and places wanted between 700 -1200 dollars to change a 40 dollar part because the entire dash has to come out. Did it myself but yuppers I would charge the same for all the work it took. The other major thing that went wrong was the 8.8" rear axle ate an axle shaft and bearing. I just put higher grade axle shafts, new bearings and seals after an axle clean out. Again another high dollar repair if you have to take it in. Buying parts from Rock Auto I think that repair was around 350 dollars my part cost and my free labour of course.

My '94 is just like my '93 and a good car and why I'm keeping it.

Now for a general problem rundown with these cars. The 4.6L 2 valve engine is meh engine. It's not powerful and more a slug. The engines are tired around 200K even with the most meticulous of care. The AODE transmission (early to mid 90's) will develop a shudder in lock up if you do not change the fluid every 30K miles or so and you have to drain the torque converter. Ford even puts a drain plug on the torque converter so that should have been a clue from the get go.

The 4.6L 2 valve engine has a horrible head design with no quench pad and the engines in the heat of summer will detonate on cheap fuel. On the pre OBDII cars there is a shorting bar to curtail the aggressiveness of the timing map and that helps to leave it in the more conservative position. The pre OBDII cars do not have a knock sensor. The OBDII cars do and even though it has a knock sensor our 2004 pinged away to the point at 200K in the cold mornings there was little mains and rod bearings left as it made a knocking clatter until it built oil pressure.

The early to mid 90's 4.6L 2V engines like to plug up the EGR ports in the aluminum intake and it's pretty easy to clean out as it will set a code and trip the Check Engine Lamp. The are getting old and both my '93 and '94 needed new intake gaskets as they leak past 20 years. Also there is an irritating little hose in the back of the manifold tying one side to the other that leaks and you'll end up with a lean miss and check engine lamp and it's a pain to get to.

The 4.6L 2V engines as I mentioned are tired and will need extensive work by 200K miles. My '93 I bought with 88K miles and by 160K I had 3 cylinders only cranking around 60 PSI and it was guzzling oil and I took very good care of that car with maintenance and 3K mile oil changes. My '94 is approaching 160K and its oil consumption has increased and like I said the 2004 would hammer until the oil pump earned its paycheck if you let it sit a couple of weeks.

I know the 4.6L 2V was in theory a much better design than the old Windsor or inline 6 series but Ford cut too many corners on the plain jane 2V version and honestly should have stuck with the little Windsor 302 or even the 300 inline 6 for the Panther. The higher end version of the modular 4.6L from stories of others tells a much different tale and it sounds like Ford built those (4 valve) engines better. I'd take a sequential mulitport injection, coil over plug mass airflow metered 300 inline 6 any day over the Modular 4.6L 2V and I don't even like inline 6's.

A word on air conditioning. I had to replace the evaporator on both the '93 and '94. I dunno if I had just bad luck or..... something more too it and it's not an easy job. In fact the factory service manual says to remove engine first. However if you remove the intake, the passenger side rocker cover, passenger side inner wheel apron, wiring and tubing behind the passenger side engine you can just get the plenum out without having to flex it and most likely crack it. It's still an 8 hour job working at a good speed and having all the tools. The '94's are R134a from the factory but the '92-'93's (new body style) are not and to convert you'll have to flush the old mineral oil out thoroughly and do not use PAG oil, use POE or Ester for conversions to R134a.

A word on dealerships and older cars. Don't plan on dealerships working on your older Panther, especially the pre OBDII ones. My '93 had a problem with the ABS and I didn't have a way to extract the codes at the time and took it to Rich Ford (just a local Ford dealership) and they said they do not have the Star tester required for that car. Furthermore they said if I were to find one, they would happily rent it from me from time to time. So there.

Long story short, you'll have to learn to extract the information from your car as I did and find the list for ABS and SRS codes and you can diagnose it yourself and fix it. Anyway the ABS turned out to be a harness that was run to tight at the factory up front and it rubbed through some of wires. I was able to track it down quickly and repair it once I had the ABS codes and the means to extract them.

As for buying one. I would look for a well cared for garaged low mileage one. I know that will pose a challenge but these cars aren't getting any newer and every passing year the propensity for more things to go wrong on a highly used one increases which will cost you more to fix, even if you do all the work yourself. Just keep in mind some of these Panthers are over 25 years old, so things like gaskets, hoses and seals will all start to fail and can easily nickel and dime you to death. I bought my '94 a few years back and even though in pretty good shape I put the equivalent of 8 grand (if you paid someone) of new parts in it right away to make it reliable. I rarely drive it, but I can count on it anytime now.

Hope that helps some.

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That is the sort of information i was looking for. I think A/C evaporators all fail more due to age than anything else. I have a 1982 Mercedes 300SD and it is the same story on the evaporator--the entire dash much come out. I would be guessing, but I bet the joints in those aluminum evaporators only last so long.
Interesting that the best years are the earlier ones--at least of the rounded models.
I wonder what the possibility of finding a STAR tester at either Carlisle or Fall Hershey would be--and how would I know if the tester was still good, or if it was already FUBAR.
I agree that any 20+ year old car is expensive to maintain if you are paying a dealership to do the work. I would be doing all the work, myself.
Thanks for all the information.
Looking forward to more Panther owners posting..

Michael
 

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You may find more Town Cars with low miles than Ford or Mercury as that type of owner tends to be older and many were retired. So drove less.

As to the plug in the torque converter comment above, Ford has had at least one drain plug in the torque converters since at least since the early 1960s. Cast Iron Cruise O Matic (last used in 1964) had two drain plugs 180 degrees from each other.

Finding a STAR tester won't be an issue. 6400 FLM dealerships had to have them in the 1980s. Many shops had multiple testers and then there was the non-FLM shops.
Don't buy one until you get the car. A later EECIV would require Star II. Just not sure is the tester is backward compatible. Or there may be card updates. I personally never used a STAR tester. Just used a meter. Earlier versions a test light would work as well if you only want a code reader function.

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
OK---I just spent an hour looking at DesertXL's 15 page rebuild of the '66LTD---Now I have some context for her comments---and a GREAT deal of respect. I only got thru the first 4 pages but what great craftmanship and attention to detail! Truly Impressive.
Did that engine ever get dyno'ed? How close did it to your target numbers ?
I agree on the TV car shows---way too much drama.
Thank you for taking time away from your several projects to share a little of your accumulated knowledge,
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
You may find more Town Cars with low miles than Ford or Mercury as that type of owner tends to be older and many were retired. So drove less.

As to the plug in the torque converter comment above, Ford has had at least one drain plug in the torque converters since at least since the early 1960s. Cast Iron Cruise O Matic (last used in 1964) had two drain plugs 180 degrees from each other.

Finding a STAR tester won't be an issue. 6400 FLM dealerships had to have them in the 1980s. Many shops had multiple testers and then there was the non-FLM shops.
Don't buy one until you get the car. A later EECIV would require Star II. Just not sure is the tester is backward compatible. Or there may be card updates. I personally never used a STAR tester. Just used a meter. Earlier versions a test light would work as well if you only want a code reader function.

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You may be right--the Town car has a better chance of being maintained and not abused.
I always thought ALL Torque Converters had at least one drain--but all I ever worked on was FoMoCo.
Does the analog VOM method work for all versions of EEC?
Must be something in the desert air that attracts quality car people.
 

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I believe an analog is the only VOM that works for retrieving codes on EEC IV.
Glad you brought that up because I don't think digital works.

Or just a paper clip
1984-1994 Ford Self Diagnostics Test - KOER ( Key On Engine Running ) - Bing video
It has been awhile since I did one of those.

The STAR tester takes out the interpretation. And speeds the test. (Important if you are a line tech)
There are other things the STAR tester does as well. Just never used a STAR tester. Just sold them in the 1980s.

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yes, i believe that only analog VOMs work with the diagnostic feature of the EEC. One good reason to hang on to that old Simpson Meter i have.
Another area for comments on Panthers---What about the digital dashes? Very high tech for their day, but at this point on their life cycle would an analog dash be more likely to be reliable? Cost or and difficulty of repair to the digital dash??
 

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I frequent a Lincoln Forum.

The Continental and Continental Mark Series of the early 80s had electronic digital instruments. Town cars got electronics as well. Just after it was used on Mark series. Either they are still working or no one has one because it is extremely rare to hear anyone post about those. I have a fondness to the seventh gen Continental. As a mid-sided car made on Fox not Panther, the upper trim levels had a lot of electronics.In had both an 83 and an 84 Continental. My 2nd & 3rd Lincoln after shifting from Ford/Mercury cars of the past.

BTW different years had different instruments that were electronic digital. There is full on everything, and I believe one year only has a fuel gauge that is digital.

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Yes, i believe that only analog VOMs work with the diagnostic feature of the EEC. One good reason to hang on to that old Simpson Meter i have.
Another area for comments on Panthers---What about the digital dashes? Very high tech for their day, but at this point on their life cycle would an analog dash be more likely to be reliable? Cost or and difficulty of repair to the digital dash??
Hello ms fowler,

I think I can chime in once again on this one. Our '94 Mercury Grand Marquis LS was special ordered with most of the Town Car options, including a full 3 panel VFD "digital" dash. Everything on the dash still works to this day, however my only beef with the VFD is in bright sunlight through the side window hitting the dash it's really hard to see it. Add sunglasses and you have the Spirit of Saint Louis dash wise, in other words flying blind. However I really like the digital dash despite that shortcoming and would not trade it for the only seemingly analogue one. The analogue one is actually digital btw, if I remember right the needle speedometer is just a 2 phase meter digitally controlled.

The digital VFD dash gives you more information, such as outside temperature, instantaneous fuel mileage and rolling average fuel mileage of which the average function can be zero'd.

The Panther VFD dash in a Mercury is a rare option and more common place in a Towncar. However that said if you were to buy a Panther with a VFD dash I would look around for a good spare. VFD's are not LED, they are thermionic emission devices just like an old fashioned CRT and the heated cathodes do sputter their chemical electron emitter over time and the VFD's will grow darker slowly just like a CRT will or an old VCR would. Or one or more heaters can fail and you'll have permanent dark spots on the VFD panel. At that point you have to replace the VFD panel or the entire dash, whichever is easier. Keep in mind the mileage is stored in the EEPROM in the dash, so switching the dash will now yield of the mileage of whatever car the replacement came out of.

Another note on the digital VFD dash, it's a package deal, meaning you also get rear air suspension and automatic climate control, at least on the 90's Panthers as the wiring harness is different and so you get the other stuff whether you want it or not. This leads into the automatic climate control. There is the digital one and the mechanical one, both regulate the temperature and blower speed. The mechanical one in the Mercury likes to break the plastic guide inside the control head and the adjustment lever will feel very loose to use and also the variable blower speed module can end up failing if the blower motor is failing and draws too much current. The blower speed modules are somewhat easy to fix as usually when the fail only high speed works and the lower variable speeds do not and it's the main T03 driver transistor that needs to be replaced. I think it's the old common standard 3055. The modules are available but I cannot vouch for the quality and may want to replace the transistor in the old one. As for the plastic guide that breaks well I modeled one up in 3D CAD and printed it out in ABS plastic and good as new but you do have to take the control head completely apart.

As for the rear air bag suspension. I've never had a problem with it. It does slowly leak down and if you're going to not use the car for long periods, either turn it off in the boot/trunk area or at least start it once a month and let it run to charge up the battery as the compressor will come on from time to time to air up the back. Remember there are no coil springs in the back only air bags holding it up. If you turn the system off and come back to the car some weeks later, you may find the butt end on the ground.

The air bag system works well if you're towing a trailer which seems funny since the 4.6L 2V can barely tow a trailer. The air bag system will automatically adjust the vehicle rear height to nominal with heavy tongue loads and let the car back down when the trailer is unloaded. It's actually a very nice feature.

One more note on the digital VFD dash it does go well past 100 MPH even if the car will not. I have a spare complete dash, climate control etc and powered it up on the bench and I think I was able to get the speedometer to 188 or 199, it's been a few years since I checked out that VFD dash as a good spare. Now keep in mind I do live at 6500 feet MSL. On a warm day a normally aspirated engine looses about 20% of its power (density altitude) and my '94 cannot even reach 100 MPH flat out. That 4.6L 2V really wheezes at these elevations in a full size car.

However just to keep it real as it were, our old high mileage (well over 200K and still going strong) 1996 Chevy Impala SS with a naturally aspirated old gen II pushrod small block V8, withcidentally is a considerably heavier car, will do 135 MPH flat out at this elevation. Add to this, both cars can get similar fuel mileage if driven extremely conservatively. It's knowing things like this that add to my disdain for the big lump of 4.6L 2V of wasted space in the Panthers, but I still like the early Panthers as the interior is so much better than that cheap old Chevrolet. However for the time period of these cars I feel GM has a much better drive train, not only is it more durable, it's efficient and much more powerful than the Fords (speaking generally for Ford/Mercury/Lincoln). If it was easy to combine the two you'd have a really good car older in my opinion.

Ok, nuff of my nattering :)

Cheers
 

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OK---I just spent an hour looking at DesertXL's 15 page rebuild of the '66LTD---Now I have some context for her comments---and a GREAT deal of respect. I only got thru the first 4 pages but what great craftmanship and attention to detail! Truly Impressive.
Did that engine ever get dyno'ed? How close did it to your target numbers ?
I agree on the TV car shows---way too much drama.
Thank you for taking time away from your several projects to share a little of your accumulated knowledge,
Hello ms fowler,

Thank you for the kind sentiments on my postings. The LTD project was held off to favour the '66 gal 500 XL build. I didn't get the LTD's engine on the dyno just because of the cost and the remote setting of where I live. Plus the engine on the LTD had the intentions of a carburetor and I quickly realized that was a mistake and so I have a duplicate multiport fuel injection setup for it as in the '66 gal 500 XL build. Actually the engines and transmissions are both built the same internally and well be the same after I retrofit the LTD's 390 with sequential multiport and remove that restrictive intake currently on there.

Cheers
 

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I believe an analog is the only VOM that works for retrieving codes on EEC IV.
Glad you brought that up because I don't think digital works.

Or just a paper clip
1984-1994 Ford Self Diagnostics Test - KOER ( Key On Engine Running ) - Bing video
It has been awhile since I did one of those.

The STAR tester takes out the interpretation. And speeds the test. (Important if you are a line tech)
There are other things the STAR tester does as well. Just never used a STAR tester. Just sold them in the 1980s.

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+1

That's one way to get the codes for the engine/transmission ECU. A few years ago for 40 bucks I bought a simple LCD display code extractor. It's a one line display tool that plugs into the port in the engine bay and will read all the stored codes quickly and you can scroll through them. It's nicer than sitting waiting seemingly forever counting slow flashes or fast ones from the Check Engine Lamp. Whilst I haven't tried it on the ABS system I don't think it was rated to work on it. For the ABS system, you have to count flashes to get the diagnostic codes. Now the tricky bit is finding the ABS codes as they are not in the factory service manual. By some dumb luck I found someone posted them on their website years ago and I downloaded them. That's how I was able to quickly diagnose the ABS problems in my '93 with the worn through harness causing the problems.

Either way you still have realistic options even if you do not have or cannot find a functioning old Ford Star tester.

Cheers
 

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The Ford Modular engine family is an interesting engine family. A rather loud engine with two very long chains.

The 4.6l 2V engine isn't all that great in the get up and go department. Used in the Panther platform from 1991 and later it was installed on full sized Ford Lincoln Mercury models made on the Panther platform. By the numbers .....
190 to 239 HP
and
260 to 285 pound/feet of torque
Depending on year and model and non-Polce applications

The above also excludes 4.6l 2V engines on other platforms.
That 4.6l 2V engine in non-Panther platforms got up to 260 HP and over 300 ft pounds of torque
Significantly better were the 3 valve and 4 valve modular engines not used in Panther platform.

With bigger displacement modular engine .... 5.4l 2V, 3V and 4V only used in trucks had far higher numbers for HP & Torque with all applications.

I have enjoyed the 4.6l 4V DOHC in my Mark VIII. Smaller platform and more powerful engine built into a personal luxury ride, it was a good combo. (Part of Thunderbird/Cougar/Mark VIII platform of the era) The problem is that platform did not sell like Panther. So, it died an earlier death that Panther platform models.

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Again, I need to say 'Thank You" for the information.
I may compile this thread with some others and try to have a more comprehensive Panther guide....but not immediately.
6500' elev? is that what they call " high desert"? Out here on the East Coast, our mountains don't even get that high!
 

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Again, I need to say 'Thank You" for the information.
I may compile this thread with some others and try to have a more comprehensive Panther guide....but not immediately.
6500' elev? is that what they call " high desert"? Out here on the East Coast, our mountains don't even get that high!
Hello ms fowler,

You're very welcome for my input. Yuppers I guess you could call our area high desert living. For the most part we live in a very large valley partially surrounded by mountains. The entire valley is around this elevation. To the east of us you can see nearly 60-70 miles straight out with the naked eye it is so flat and barren. However one of the mountains that overlooks ABQ you can drive up and it's a fun drive, at the top it's 10,300 ft MSL. If you're not used to the thin air up there, just run around for a few minutes and you'll be completely out of breath. :)

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Hello ms fowler,

You're very welcome for my input. Yuppers I guess you could call our area high desert living. For the most part we live in a very large valley partially surrounded by mountains. The entire valley is around this elevation. To the east of us you can see nearly 60-70 miles straight out with the naked eye it is so flat and barren. However one of the mountains that overlooks ABQ you can drive up and it's a fun drive, at the top it's 10,300 ft MSL. If you're not used to the thin air up there, just run around for a few minutes and you'll be completely out of breath. :)

Cheers
I can run around for a few minutes at sea level and be pretty much out of breathe!!
I have been working on cars and trucks for over 60 years. I say that to say this--" Your level of skill is simply amazing"! Thank you for sharing your experiences.
 
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